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Moffat on Why the Master Won’t Be Back

john-simm-master-lies

Sorry John Simm. And Charles Dance. And Steve John Shepherd. And Samuel Anderson.

Steven Moffat has seemingly ruled out the Master returning, stating that he thinks that the story is “sort of done.”

Responding to the question at the London premiere Q&A [Via] he replied: “No! I accidentally just said the truth! No, not really. I think the story’s sort of done. I thought what Russell [T. Davies] did with that was so brilliant, because I did think it was over.

“Once you’d lost Roger Delgado, who was so brilliant, it was tough to keep it… it’s like Moriarty in Sherlock – yes, I know – you think, ‘you’re a great master villain, you know what you do a lot, you lose! You’re always tremendously confident and then you’re humiliatingly defeated and you don’t remember that the next time you pop up with your ridiculous plan’.

“So no, the Doctor doesn’t really need an arch-enemy, so we’ll go for new ones. So, sorry John Simm.”

The first one to say “Moffat lies” wins a virtual jelly baby.

Step back in time...

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278 comments
Noybusiness
Noybusiness

I tend to think that Moffat may well bring back the Master. This reminds me of other times he has said without truly meaning it that something would be a bad idea and then done it. But I don't necessarily think he has plans to do it now, in Series 8.

Joey99
Joey99

For reasons I can't explain I personally believe this information is false and Master will be in series 8! Remember this is my opinion and not a spoiler!

Polyphase
Polyphase

Agreed, Simm was a terrible Master.

MaraBackman
MaraBackman

In a way I agree with him, because I very much enjoyed "The End of Time" and how it gave the Master a fitting (potential) end, but at the same time I feel that they could still work with the character. Even if this is how Moffat believes it should be he most likely won't be the last showrunner of Doctor Who, so there is the possibility that someone else brings back the Doctor's arch-enemy.

Diana van der Pluijm
Diana van der Pluijm

That's a strange statement,  considering the Master, like the Daleks and the Cybermen, is as iconic an enemy as they are. To say the Master would never return 'because his story is done' is the same as saying the Daleks or the Cybermen would never return 'because their story is done'. Ridiculous. Perhaps Moffat doesn't want to 'revive' the Master, but I sure as heck believe that a next showrunner might think differently. Oh, and Moffat lies. Seriously, we should all stop saying that right now, because, as House always says: "Everybody lies." Can we be done with that absolutely empty phrase now?

thribs1
thribs1

The Master's story is never done.

Wibbly-Wobbly is John Reese
Wibbly-Wobbly is John Reese

I watched "The Rains of Castamere" earlier so I'm in deep depression but the "And Samuel Anderson" helped.

ghostbom
ghostbom

...Moffat lies? Moving on, I agree and disagree with this. I LOVED what RTD turned The Master into, but I don't like the idea that that's it (until we get a new show runner/for 10 years time). A psychotic an quite possibly manically depressed enemy who you could never morally 'defeat' is quite possibly one of the greatest ideas for an 'arch-enemy' but Moffat would somehow have to evolve on this which would quite easily peeve off fans of the show.


Master Michael Moon
Master Michael Moon

I assure everyone by saying that Steve John Shepherd would make a brilliant Master. Then Moffat can eat his words. His story is never done. He is the Doctor's arch enemy for god sake. Let's see how Series 8 plays out. Surely if Gallifrey is to return in the not too distant future, the Master is bound to pop up somewhere, trying to construct a TARDIS of his own again...


Moves Like Jagaroth
Moves Like Jagaroth

One of the few occasions I agree with Moff and he's probably telling porkies


Antee991166
Antee991166

Firstly "Moffat Lies". But also even if he has no intention of bringing back The Master, I'm not worried, since the next show runner will very likely have a different view point.

Oliver J. "cool"
Oliver J. "cool"

Didn't enjoy Simms Master but will welcome the character back with a new regen (as long as there is a regen scene)

Rani Nose
Rani Nose

I am okay with this.  The Master, like several of the classic series villains, is a cartoon villain.  The whole "I am an evil genius.  Today I will begin my ridiculously complicated evil plan to take over the universe for unknown reasons." character is not on any level realistic or relatable.  The RTD/Simm Master took that approach to its logical conclusion.  I'd much rather see a new villain much better grounded in reality like Solomon from Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, or a re-envisioned classic like Grand Marshal Skaldak, than the cartoonish Master.

OzzyDenman
OzzyDenman

im not watching doctor who anymore

Four knocks
Four knocks

My theory is when the master changed everyone human into himself and then got changed back one of them somehow managed to stay as the master due to being locked up somewere made of vinvoci glass as a last resort by the master as he isn't stupid ! That version of the master is still at large and never saved the doctor so is still technically the bad version ! Just a possibility but it would make a good story line - they've kept him locked up for years and somehow he escapes - means john SIMM can come back and regenrate :)

Oodkind
Oodkind

Speaking of The Master,  Perhaps he stole Rassilon's regenerations, and regenerated into a young man who takes over the planet. He is the one who gave The Doctor a new regeneration cycle, recognizing he could never have gained control over Gallifrey without him. Now Gallifrey will be lost from the end of the Time War all the way to whenever it's released, which will be thousands of years later. The Master will control Gallifrey this whole time in a ruthless regime, and he eventually grows bored of it and tricks The Doctor into releasing the planet into the universe. By this time, he will be old and angry-- perfect to be played by Charles Dance.

Oodkind
Oodkind

Rrrrg. First no Valeyard because he's boring, then no Rani because new fans don't know her, and now this. Too bad. I really like the Master, not just as a villain, but as a character in general. The wonderful thing is that he isn't just a evil timelord, like Omega or Rassilon, he's actually a developed, complex character who perfectly mirrors The Doctor. I really hope 'the Moffat lies,' because I really miss him. I really hope he returns before the end of Capaldi's run, because I think that match-up could have a lot of potential if they are indeed going for a Pertwee-esque theme.

AnthonyJFuchs
AnthonyJFuchs

The Master's about-face from villain to reluctant savior -- "Get out of the way" -- and his final stand against Rassilon -- "You did this to me! All of my life! YOU MADE ME!" -- was just. So. Damn. Good. Any misgivings I may have had about John Simm along the way were utterly crushed in that final minute of screentime.


Bring the character back if you have a good reason to, but I won't lose sleep if I never see him again. He is, for me, redeemed.

Christoph1337
Christoph1337

Also, how many times have the Daleks and Cybermen been "completely destroyed" and come back a season or two later? 

Christoph1337
Christoph1337

Does anyone believe him after the whole "No classic Doctor cameos in the 50th" debacle? This is the man who kept "Silence will fall" running for almost four years and claimed he would never bring Moriarty back into play on Sherlock; the man trolls the fanbase for fun. So when he says that he will never bring the Master back, take that with a grain of salt. Also remember that Moffat won't be showrunner forever; someone else will eventually take his place, and I guarantee the Master will be back one day. 

superwrongfoot
superwrongfoot

Moffat really is the problem with Doctor Who.  Sure he thinks the Master's story is done but it really isn't and nobody else thinks that.  I give the show two more series before he manages to kill it.  His ideas aren't even fresh any more, he just seems to rip off his old once good ideas, Deep Breath is a key example of this.

Unibot
Unibot

Someone will bring back The Master, but I think if I was in Moff's shoes, I wouldn't bring The Master back. If you're going to do it, do it in the later part of Capaldi's run when Capaldi is established and face him off against someone with a ton of gravitas like (and I'm surprised I haven't seen him suggested yet) Alan Rickman. 

Cyruay
Cyruay

this is going to get a scolding on The Real Whovians cast.   Moffat is so anti-RTD.






Timhogan
Timhogan

I mean I do sort of agree I feel like the story did kind of reach a conclusion with the whole End of Time thing.  But at the same time it wouldn't be hard to make him an enemy again with a new story.  I still think that when it gets near the time of Gallifrey to actually return the Master pops up trying to stop the Doctor thinking now he's the hero trying to stop the Doctor from making a terrible decision of bringing them back.

Nick1995
Nick1995

Can't understand this whole "His story is done" thing.... The Master is and always should be an ongoing villain

Ollie Walton Harrod
Ollie Walton Harrod

@Oliver J. "cool" I don't think a regeneration scene for the Master is definitely necessary. I wouldn't mind it, but I don't want them just thinking of any way to get a regeneration scene in there.

And what was wrong with John Simm's master?

BazHood
BazHood

@superwrongfoot Deep Breath is BRILLIANT! There are only so many ways to tell alien invasion stories so, of course, some regurgitation is inevitable. Terry Nation wrote the same Dalek story 4 or 5 times!!! :P However, sometimes the stars align and it's just.........RIGHT. I haven't been the biggest fan of Grand Moff's showrunning but every now and again he still pulls a cracker out the hat and Deep Breath, for me, is excellent. Capaldi with Moffat may do GREAT things :)

Rani Nose
Rani Nose

@superwrongfoot Yes, the current world tour and showing 'Deep Breath' in cinemas shows how unpopular the show has become under Moffat's leadership.


supermoff
supermoff

@Cyruay Anyone who needs to specify that they are "real" Whovians sounds like t*ats to me 

U_Monkey_U
U_Monkey_U

@Cyruay He may seem to be anti-RTD but he took Russell's Master and cranked him up to 11 to create Moriarty in Sherlock. Definitely one of the campiest (and not in a good way) villains I've ever seen.

They're all my favorite Doctor
They're all my favorite Doctor

@Nick1995 I think they may be referencing the fact that what happened in "The End of Time" is awfully similar to what was originally planned for the ending of the Master before Roger Delgado's untimely death. Until last year, I was inclined to agree, but with Gallifrey still out there, it just brings up loads of possibilities with him that could be explored.

Rani Nose
Rani Nose

@Amy says Peter Davison is the Thirteenth Doctor! "ultimate schemes" being the key phrase, I think.  Ultimate schemes are the realm of a cartoon villains.  They quickly become self-parodies of the "I am an evil genius because I do evil genius things" school.  Simm's Master was hard to take at first viewing, but in retrospect I find it a brilliant performance that takes the character to his ultimate limit.

Ollie Walton Harrod
Ollie Walton Harrod

@Rani Nose @Nick1995 He doesn't 'have' to be, of course. But he works so well as, not only a villain, but the Doctor's arch nemesis. So just, abandoning the character seems quite silly.

Don't Blink
Don't Blink

@Polyphase @Mati C 

Um...where does he indicate he didn't like Simm? The only relevant comment I can see is this: "I thought what Russell [T. Davies] did with that was so brilliant"

Which seems to contradict what you just invented...

Amy says Peter Davison is the Thirteenth Doctor!
Amy says Peter Davison is the Thirteenth Doctor!

You know, I quite like the avatar too, more than I was expecting. It just kind of suits the attitude I like to convey a lot of the time. It's great when I find an avatar that just resonates with my Internet demeanor. :P But as for your question, it's half-joking, in that it's meant to poke fun at people get really worked up about what numbers the modern series Doctors are now, but I do think of them as the Other's faces. See, it all started when I thought to myself, "Wait a minute - River didn't learn the Doctor's name at Trenzalore! So that couldn't be what Ten was talking about when he said that there was only one time he could tell someone his name, so-- ooh, what could it be??" And so my mind drifted over to the Cartmel Masterplan and I figured, "Hey, maybe it has to do with that! That was the original 'the Doctor has a secret, you know' angle they took, and those hints about his true nature as the Other are still there in 'Remembrance' and 'Silver Nemesis', so I can't just ignore them." Then, making the connection between the Other and the Morbius Doctors was just a natural conclusion. Saying that they were Morbius' faces doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me; the intent of that scene was very clear. So it's my fill-in answer for that mystery, until we know what the answer really is (but I doubt that we will, and I'll still hold to my belief even if we do - it'll just be a separate mystery). The looms were a bit tricky to work around, but I think I managed to patch over the holes. The curse wore off before Susan was born, so she really was his granddaughter (it couldn't have been what the Masterplan originally proposed, since we saw the Doctor leaving with Susan in "The Name of the Doctor"), Time Lords are weaved together as children since their bodies probably need time to develop in preparation from the stress of being a Time Lord (accounting for things like the Doctor's cot and the Gallifreyan children we've seen), and Time Lords don't regard their loom "cousins" as "cousins," which explains how the Braxiatel can be the Doctor's brother (whom he passingly referenced in "Smith and Jones"). At least, I think that's all the holes - but I do love the idea anyway. I used to be totally against it. xP


ilyootha is back in home Universe
ilyootha is back in home Universe

@Amy says Peter Davison is the Thirteenth Doctor!"it's meant to poke fun at people get really worked up about what numbers the modern series Doctors are now"







:D :D :D :D :D


My problem with Morbius Doctors is that the Other couldn't have eight faces: as implied in both Lungbarrow and Zagreus, the ability to regenerate was something engineered by Rassilon and was not possessed by the pre-existing Gallifreyans ("The children of the Looms of Rassilon will each have thirteen lives. While we, dear friend, the doomed relics of another age, have but one brief life a piece". And although Rassilon himself eventually had several incarnations, the Other didn't really have time to learn how to regenerate, let alone do it 7 times). So counting the Other or not, those 8 faces don't really fit anywhere anyway. I say that they are past incarnations of Morbius, even if that wasn't the authorial intention.











Time Lords are definitely loomed as children (we have flashbacks in Master and The Sound of Drums), even though Lungbarrow describes them as "fully-grown adults", there is a flashback chapter of a 5-year-old Doctor running away from classes and he really sounds like a schoolboy there, not some grown-up. I'm not sure what to make of the Doctor's cot though, as the newly-loomed cousin Owis could hardly walk and talk if he was only a baby! I'm afraid I prefer to think that it was not really the Doctor's cot, rather than ignore Lungbarrow - it's too good to be non-canon for me :P Besides, the curse wore off in the end anyway, so all the children in Day were naturally born.





I like the idea that Susan is the Other's granddaughter who joined the Doctor when he traveled to the only time and place the Time Lords would never pursue him: Gallifrey's own past. She is still, in a way, the Doctor's granddaughter, even if he himself doesn't know about it! This is tricky to work around Name, but I managed to come up with a weird explanation that Susan seen on the engineers' computer screen in Name was actually a projection made by the TARDIS and/or the Hand of Omega (much like the Moment projected itself as Rose, whom the Doctor also hasn't yet met at that point). It's a bit of a stretch, I know, but in a way it actually makes sense for the Hand to disguise itself like that, because a Time Lord running away with a girl looks less conspicuous than a Time Lord running away with a missing semi-sentient super weapon.









Braxiatel is another tricky one, because the House actually buried itself with all the Doctor's cousins inside for over 600 years, and all mentions of it were erased, so how could Brax be still free and why he didn't remember the House is a mystery... Maybe he's not the Doctor's brother after all. But yes, they don't always call each other "cousins", there was a moment when a young cousin referred to an elderly cousin as "granny".

There is also a problem of Leela and Romana knowing each other in Lungbarrow despite them meeting each other for the first time again later in Zagreus. I'm blaming everything on the EDA books, seeing how apparently Gallifrey was destroyed and restored there, with an earlier version of Romana and all that, memories of some events were presumably lost.




Finally, in my headcanon, the mysterious woman in The End of Time is the Doctor's cousin Innocet. This is as close to the authorial intention as I can get, as she was the only one of the Doctor's cousins who cared for him! 


Now I think that's all the holes :P 















Amy says Peter Davison is the Thirteenth Doctor!
Amy says Peter Davison is the Thirteenth Doctor!

First off of going to apologize preemptively for the incoming block o' text. There is no other way. But, straight to the point, I should mention that I haven't gotten around to reading "Lungbarrow" yet (far too swamped in other things that are higher on my list; I'm just about to start getting into Big Finish and I have several other things to focus on; one day I'll get to it, though), so I confess that I only have what I've read about it to work with. So I guess I should have expected that I'd be missing on some of the details. Anyway. I guess in that case, that really is the only way to resolve the faces. But I'm not changing my avatar, dangit! :P  |  I'm a little confused here. So, does or does not the book suggest that they are weaved as children? You say that there's a flashback of the Doctor as a schoolboy (and in the modern series he mentions playing with Roentgen blocks when he was young), but then that Owis could walk - assuming that my understanding is correct, is it at all possible that maybe the looming technology simply improved over time and allowed them to eventually forego the need for a development period, giving rise to adult-weave looms? Just to throw a hand-wavey idea out there. Although you're right, the kids in "Day" would be post-curse. I somehow didn't make that connection. xP  |  OH! OH! That's BRILLIANT! I LOVE that! I've seen people ask where the Hand was in that scene, and while I was perfectly happy to accept the "he put it in his pocket, because it's bigger on the inside lol" explanation, what you have there is way more awesome!  |  Maybe Braxiatel is adopted. :P I don't know, I like the idea of them being brothers, or at least having brotherly paradigm about their relationship. I don't know. Since I haven't read the book yet, in what context do you mean "buried"? Is it conceivable that that is something Brax could have avoided by being elsewhere?  |  Ahh, the Woman. I used to think that she was the Doctor's mother, but these days, I'm leaning more toward her being a Clara fragment, just for a fun little bit of reverse-continuity. It cuts a bit close since the Doctor isn't supposed to have noticed her fragments much until the Asylum, but then, he never does state what her relationship to him is so it's possible that he himself doesn't know, and by that point, she looks different enough for the Doctor to not draw a connection between her and Victorian Clara (although, in comparing pictures of them, I found that they do have remarkably similar facial structures). Plus, by the time that the Doctor first meets Victorian Clara, it's been at least 300 years in his timeline since "The End of Time", so it's also possible that he just forgot about her, like he did with Gallifreyan Clara. Although maybe once I read the book, I'll change my mind. We'll have to see. 


ilyootha is back in home Universe
ilyootha is back in home Universe

@Amy says Peter Davison is the Thirteenth Doctor!That's what I had been doing for almost a year myself, defending the loom theory in online arguments despite having never read its main source, only stuff from reviews and wiki XD Anyway, one can always imagine that the Doctor regenerated several times prior to An Unearthly Child and somehow found a fay to "refuel" his regenerations, but I prefer more subtle theories.


I meant, the authorial intention is obviously that the Time Lords are weaved as fully-grown adults, but nothing really stops you from imagining that they are actually weaved as fully-grown children who look something like 5-10 years old in Earth terms. In author's notes it's said that in that scene of a 5-year-old Doctor he should look about twenty, but I don't recall anything in the narrative addressing that. When I was reading that chapter, I totally imagined a young boy, not exactly looking five, put perhaps ten or twelve or something. Regarding Owis, it turns out I didn't remember things correctly: I thought he was only a few days old (and thus imagined that Time Lords are born already with basic abilities such as speech and straight movement), but actually he was already two years old! Anyway, whether he looked like an adult or a child at that time, he was still relatively young, and thus was still learning things ('Owis,' she said sharply. 'What did we learn yesterday about No?'). Young Time Lords still have to learn from their cousins and tutors, like all the children do, so I don't see why they shouldn't look like children, even if the authorial intention is that they should look like adults!





Unfortunately I can't say much about Brax, as I know very little about him. He doesn't appear in Lungbarrow or any other novel that I've read; the only time I ever saw or heard him was his brief appearance as a Cardinal in Zagreus, which takes place long after Lungbarrow. I don't want to reveal much, but the House literally went underground with all of its cousins (every single one apart from the Doctor, they've checked) inside and was cut off from the rest of the world, where it was soon forgotten. The context explicitly rules out the possibility of any of the Doctor's cousins leaving the House or being outside it while the Doctor was traveling the Universe (one cousin tried to climb out through a chimney and got stuck, and others could hear him regenerating for 11 days!). Of course, for now I can assume that following the House's restoration, Braxiatel became Cardinal, but once I start reading The Empire of Glass or listening to Gallifrey, I'll get all sorts of continuity problems and will have to think of something else!


The Clara fragment is a fun theory. Perhaps she was the very fragment that told the Doctor to take the right TARDIS! Hence maybe he remembered her at the back of his mind from Name, although apparently forgot again by the time of Asylum. I'd like to point out that there is a possibility for the Woman to be Leela, because even in Lungbarrow after two hundred pages of looms stuff there is suddenly a very cheeky dialogue:






He looked fondly at Leela for a long time, peering into her eyes as if he recognized something there.

'This love thing,' he mused. 'Interesting. A father from Gallifrey and a mother of Earth stock. That's an unusual pedigree.'


She pushed back her hair and said awkwardly, 'I don't have anything for you, Doctor.'

'Just call him after me.'

"Grandfather Paradox" anyone? XD































Amy says Peter Davison is the Thirteenth Doctor!
Amy says Peter Davison is the Thirteenth Doctor!

Yeah, I can't say I like that idea about them just being pre-Hartnell regenerations. It feels like if something such as that were to happen, more should be made of it. At that rate, it would just be "He had eight lives... and he spent them, but he got more energy... somehow. Onto Hartnell!"  |  The notion that they are weaved as children is also more in line with the "daisiest daisy" story that the Doctor told to Jo in "The Time Warrior".  |  Yeah, that sounds like it could work at least as far as "Lungbarrow" and "Zagreus"are concerned. Or, is it possible that Brax could have been exempt due to his duties as a Cardinal? I think the Council wouldn't be too keen on one of their Cardinals being pulled back to his house for that long.  |  Arg! If that's suggesting what I think it's suggesting, then there goes my head. xP


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