News Categories
Archives

Addressing the Deep Breath Kiss

Guest contributor Peter Miles looks at LGBT+ representation and its reception.

jenny-vastra-kiss-deep-breath

By now, I imagine that the majority of us have seen the Series 8 premiere in ‘Deep Breath’. The episode delivered on many fronts with Capaldi’s debut being hailed as a critical success, the episode being seen as a good sign for the future of the series and the new direction the show was taking. The episode also did several other things, such as reintroducing a former monster but the one I’m going to discuss is the kiss between Vastra and Jenny, the first lesbian kiss to be broadcast in the history of Doctor Who and the wider attitudes towards LGBT+ characters. The reason I’m going to talk about this is because it has elicited a rather saddening reaction amongst some fans.

I hope to provide, as a gay man, a heartfelt argument as to why it is imperative we need this representation in our media, to debunk some of the commonly cited reasons against LGBT+ representation (which have been used against Doctor Who but is also pervasive in most fanbases) and to address some of the comments made specifically against Jenny and Vastra. Homophobia and other forms of marginalisation can make fandom a dark, unsafe place.

(Disclaimer: while I make use of the term LGBT+, Doctor Who has largely dealt with issues of sexual rather than gender identity. I use LGBT+ as it is a commonly used acronym in such discussions.

When referring to homophobia, I will be using the following definition:

“Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs.”

Also, by discussing this, I expect I may be opening a can of worms so in the light of potential debate, I hope that civility is maintained.)

“[…] the BBC seem to want to become a porn channel and are slowly edging into it. I think they wish to come out of the closet, well I have no objection to that if they become a private adult channel, but not on our licence fee.”

A same-gender couple who have been together since their first appearance in 2011 are given their first physical expression of their relationship and it’s classed as … porn? A kiss is a universal sign of affection but, to paraphrase Waymon Hudson, people like this individual can’t see a gay couple kiss without thinking “sex”, while they can easily separate the idea of sex and affection in straight couples (I’ll develop this point later). This idea also manifests itself in a lesser form:

“I thought it was gratuitous and not particularly welcome in a family show aimed at kids. It just seems [executive producer Steven Moffat] is on some weird, lizard-lesbian perv trip.”

Many fans voice their displeasure about LGBT+ characters being given explicit representation, particularly in shows with a young audience, using a sentence like the one above. What I find personally interesting is that these phrases are sometimes followed by:

“But I’m not a homophobe, it’s just my opinion.”

doctor-who-the-snowmen-gallery-46It is indeed an opinion. However, it is also a homophobic opinion. By denying LGBT+ representation, it is homophobic as it reinforces the idea that homosexual behaviour is “different” and “bad” and that heterosexuality is the social norm when in truth it is simply more common. While LGBT+ characters are told to keep their “display [of] preferences” private or offscreen, heterosexual characters can kiss and have relationships onscreen without this criticism being levelled at them. This is called Heteronormativity, one aspect of a “culture that “privileges heterosexuality as normal and natural” and fosters a climate where LGBTQ [people] are discriminated against in marriage, tax codes, and employment”.

By not giving fair and decent portrayal of LGBT+ characters in the media, we teach that heterosexuality is the “right” way to live, fosters homophobia through ignorance (as the media has an undeniable influence on our development and opinions) and in a situation where no LGBT+ representation is given, creates significant problems for those who realise that they are not heterosexual which they have been told is “not normal”.

This view also undermines the adaptiveness and intelligence of young people. Some of you will have probably seen this video but this one is also a valuable watch and if you google around, there are numerous anecdotes of kids being easily capable of understanding non-heterosexual people and relationships. The dispelling of heteronormative thinking would seem to only improve the quality of life for both hetero- and non-heterosexual kids and validates LGBT+ identities. Heteronormativity being detrimental can be found with Christian singer Vicky Beeching who recently came out as a lesbian. To summarise the article, she grew up in an environment that denied her sexuality to the point that she developed a physical condition that could have killed her.

Doctor Who is a fantastic example of a TV show that dispels heteronormative ideas by being inclusive of other types of relationships but it can do more. To explain, here are some super-scientific stats from Doctor Who since it was revived in 2005:

tennant-doctor-kiss-astrid-kylie-voyage

The Doctor not making use of the snog box.

  • The Doctor has kissed/been kissed by someone from a different gender 16 times, 10 of which were gestures of romance (e.g. the Doctor kissing Martha was not a romantic gesture as the Doctor had no romantic intentions).
  • In comparison, the Doctor has kissed/been kissed by someone of the same gender 3 times, all of which have been platonic and not romantic. It’s technically 4 if you consider the 11th Doctor’s failed attempted to kiss Craig to distract him from the Cybermen in Closing Time.
  • The total number of kissing depicted onscreen between two people of a different gender is, er, a lot higher. Blame Amy and Rory for that one.
  • In comparison, the total number of kissing depicted onscreen between two people of the same gender is 4 (5 including Craig), one of which is Jenny and Vastra’s kiss in Deep Breath.
  • There has been at least one heterosexual romantic relationship depicted onscreen between two characters in every series of Doctor Who, including unrequited/one-sided affairs (e.g. Martha’s crush on the Doctor in Series 3).
  • In comparison, Series’ 1, 2, 4 and 5 have not depicted a non-heterosexual relationship explicitly on-screen between two characters, although some LGBT+ characters (i.e. Captain Jack) do discuss non-heterosexual relationships that occurred off-screen. In addition, there is only 1 relationship shown on-screen between two characters in Series 6 and 7.
  • As of The Time of the Doctor, there have been 22 characters who have been depicted as being heterosexual on-screen with one or several of each other. This includes main characters, recurring characters (e.g. family/friends) and characters who appeared once but had some contribution to the episode they featured in.
  • In comparison, there have only been 5 characters who have been depicted as not being heterosexual on-screen. If we widen the criteria beyond the ones used in the last bullet point, this number only increases to 9. All of these characters are recurring or appeared only once in a story, meaning that they have very limited screen-time yet garner more criticism than their heterosexual counterparts. Only 3 of these characters have been in a current relationship but only 2 of that 3 have had the majority of their relationship depicted in Doctor Who rather than another show such as Torchwood.

Why does all of this information matter? For the simple reason that it’s important for LGBT+ characters to dispel the homophobic stereotypes used against LGBT+ people in real life. Without media representation, a lot of us only have these misinformed stereotypes to go on.

The reason why Jenny, Vastra and Captain Jack are so good at representing LGBT+ people is because their sexuality is portrayed as being one aspect of their lives without it ever being sidelined or used as a storyline. They all have jobs, they have distinct personalities and backgrounds i.e. they are three-dimensional characters, and Deep Breath took the next step by showing how their sexuality is still a defining aspect of the lives they live:

Vastra: Jenny and I married. Yet for appearances sake, we maintain a pretence in public, that she is my maid […] I wear a veil to keep from view what many are pleased to call my disfigurement.

As Vastra wears a veil for her appearance, Vastra wears a veil on her relationship, something which still rings true for LGBT+ people today for fear of verbal/physical/sexual harassment, being disowned and made homeless, social isolation and many other issues.

We need representation but we need the fans to support it. For LGBT+ Whovians, particularly young ones, LGBT+ characters are bright stars in a dark sky and it is my hope that the production team continues to include three-dimensional LGBT+ characters like Madame Vastra, Jenny Flint and Captain Jack Harkness.

Step back in time...

COMMENT GUIDELINES

Please be civil and keep article comments relevant and on topic. Flag and report any offensive/trolling behavior, or contact us with details.
Please do not post SPOILERS including anything from leaked episodes! Your account could be banned. For complete details on our comment policy please read.
727 comments
mrclever
mrclever

I know I am a bit late but this is a Sci Fi program and I rather not see kissing on the screen at all 

MarkNevitt
MarkNevitt

Ofcoms response to the Complaints

The TV regulator confirmed that six viewers had expressed concern over an “inappropriate” scene involving lizard-woman Madame Vastra and her human wife Jenny Flint.

“Having assessed the complaints, we can confirm that they do not raise issues warranting further investigation,” an Ofcom spokesperson told The Independent.

“Our rules do not discriminate between scenes involving opposite sex and same sex couples.”

EmilyDrWho
EmilyDrWho

Personally think they should have more kisses between them and that there should be a whole episode about how they met and how their relationship started ect!

VallesMarineris
VallesMarineris

As a closeted gay (well, homoromantic gray-asexual, but that's something to get into another time) teenage girl, I was thrilled to see this episode, because Vastra and Jenny's relationship was presented as such a normal aspect of their lives, and part of that was the kiss. Hey, married people kiss! So surprising, right? But I watched this episode with my brother, who's never shy about expressing his opinions and has said some incredibly homophobic things in the past, and when I realized that this episode wasn't going to be coy about Vastra and Jenny's love for each other, I started to get very nervous But to my shock, after some moments early on where he seemed confused, apparently not remembering the character's relationship, he acted like it was normal, or at least ignored it, even the kiss. The only time in the episode he expressed disgust, it was over the close-ups of noses and mouths, which weirded him out. Does that mean I feel comfortable coming out to my family? No, and I probably won't until I'm in university or have completed it, and am financially independent. (And have built up a bit more self-confidence.) But Doctor Who has started to make my family just a little bit more tolerant, and that's something I'm incredibly grateful for.

Incidentally, to the people who claim LGTBQ+ rights are all about sex, I have two things to say: one, there are plenty of places where homosexuality is NOT illegal, but members of the LGTBQ+ community still don't have the same rights as heterosexual couples, and so we protest, and two, the asexual community falls under the LGBTQ+ banner. We're the "A" in LGBTQA (it does not stand for "ally"). Clearly we typically have somewhat different concerns. In my experience, the people who spend the most time talking about gay sex in public are homophobes. One cannot help but wonder why they spend so much time thinking about it.

So in conclusion, I'd like to congratulate and thank the writing and production team of "Deep Breath," and especially Neve McIntosh and Catrin Stewart for their efforts to start removing the stigma from same-gender relationships in family-oriented television shows, as well as everyone who's spoken up in defense of the kiss. It means so much to people like me.

diskgrinder
diskgrinder

Very well said. As a heterosexual man in the middle of life I find homophobia a peculiar obsession for people of all ages trying to come to terms with their own sexuality; once you have it's not an issue.

SteveWillis
SteveWillis

I find excessive lip kissing sorts of dampens the affect of it. A kiss is symbolic, but seeing it a lot loses the symbolism somewhat. I feel like the kiss was shoe-horned it. True it was the only way to share oxygen, but that was a scenario invented. I generally dislike kisses being shoe horned in anyway. I suppose on the plus side, it shows to people who are of not a shut mind that two individuals of the same sex having a lip kiss is normal.

ElyotWren
ElyotWren

Firstly, it wasn't even a kiss. Vastra was sharing oxygen and to do that a simple way is to do as they did by locking lips - it wouldn't really work through their noses. You wouldn't say that someone resuscitating another person is kissing them, would you? It was practically the same concept. People are just so pathetic to care so much about a 3 second moment that was a couple of people sharing oxygen - that is what they're actually complaining about - not a kiss! It would be amusing to see if anyone complained about Jenny simply posing for Vastra... she wanted Jenny posing for her own kinky benefit. Meaning, if they were going to kiss on screen, I think Vastra would have been way more kinky about it. However, although I am in the LGBT community and fully support us all, the only problem I had with it was why it had to be so imposing on the screen. If it had been taken back a bit and not been such a massive focus on their lips meeting, it may have been taken better. It was too much of a 'look what the BBC have allowed us to do - up yours homophobes' kind of delivery which is so arrogant, and I'm not someone who imposes my sexuality or gender on anyone just because I'm within the community and feel I have an obligation to promote and support LGBT life. Because I don't. Making a big thing about something we want equality about really annoys me and sort of embarrasses me to be the person I am. I'm actually sometimes afraid to tell people of my gender and sexuality because the community is so in your face these days. Before anyone assumes I have a great life being transgender and pansexual as I am, no I don't, I'm oppressed every single day like the rest of us, so I completely understand how we need to have our lives 'normalised' on big name shows like Doctor Who, which covers many diverse characters from the Doctor himself who has been flirty and forward with various genders, to 'the thin, fat, gay, married Anglican marines' who showed that they were minor characters just getting on with their lives, happily married, and were marines. I just don't like it shoved down my throat how we're trying to make a point. That's just to say only if the pair of them were kissing, which they weren't.






hobbingtonthefirst16
hobbingtonthefirst16

This scene is one of the reasons Doctor Who is still popular; it stays modern.






.

I wasn't a massive thing for me to see it - a few other TV shows i have seen include a couple of the same gender; Eastenders, for example, has a same sex couple, and it is usually aimed around adults and families (i know my mum's friend's daughters watch the show, and they are around 5/7 years old), and that's been going on since 1985!!











bringmeknitting
bringmeknitting

I'm not entirely surprised at the reaction to the kiss, people are slow to leave behind old, long-held viewpoints behind. I'm definitely of the opinion that the kiss was in no way gratuitous (Vastra was saving Jenny's life!) in any case. I would say I'm against there being overt quantities of snogging whichever the gender, if only because it breaks the flow of the plot. But those getting hot under the collar really need to get a life. 

BranellopeBites
BranellopeBites

People think it'll encourage more young ones to end up gay.

1. What's wrong with that?

2. So explain the LGBT people that have grown up in predominantly heterosexual environments such as myself?

flyingcatman7131
flyingcatman7131

I don't really see the point of making a big deal about this. I don't make a big deal when anybody kisses on television. I prefer to keep romance out of anything altogether, although I know I will never get my wish ;) Yeah, it's nice that Doctor Who did this, but why the hell are we making a big deal about it?






XanderH
XanderH

Suggest everyone stops feeding the trolls and let them wither and die.

The Living Angel
The Living Angel

I think that it is a beautiful thing that Doctor Who is trying to get across, the fact that love is boundless.

DaftDalek is Ceter Papaldi
DaftDalek is Ceter Papaldi

There is WAY too much fuss over that kiss. To be honest, I had found it unnatural that they hadn't kissed at all these past four episodes

On a slightly irrelevant note, I've got to say that Doctor Who has played a major role in my appreciating, respecting and not being prejudiced towards LGBT people. In greek media LGBT are portrayed mainly stereotypically and not just in series etc, but this is how many real gay people behave on-screen. You can easily understand that DW changed impressively those views I partially shared,I admit. I understood that LGBT are people like me who have one aspect of their lives different than I do. Not only did the great LGBT characters contributed inthis but also people from behind the scenes especially Russell T Davies and John Barrowman.

Finally, if these people believe that a kiss between a married couple (even a lesbian one, it doesn't matter) is porn, then one thing is clear:

They have never seen porn. Ahem.

JONNY KROTON
JONNY KROTON

As a heterosexual I don't see why this is even an issue, two consenting adults kiss, (and to be fair it was to save another's life) why the fuss?

shots1
shots1

And I thought that Vastra was sharing the air in her lungs...........saving a life.....I never even deemed it a kiss. I am open minded but if it had been a kiss then such a close up on a family show would have been incorrect in my opinion. Not all ages would appreciate the embarrassment (like my Mum bless her ), but it wasn't so move on : )

wordtwister
wordtwister

I have two points to make:                                                                                       1: As a 17 year old, hetrosexual female (obviously not representing all hetrosexual females) I didn't even notice it, let alone think twice about it. How many times have people kissed on Doctor who? I kind of thought that the two had already kissed. Learn something everyday i guess.                                                                                        2: This is what makes BBC a porn channel? Not Torchwood? I mean, they literally had people having sex on screen. But nope, lesbian kiss does it I guess. Why is this a big deal?




siskulous
siskulous

One point I'd like to make here. You say there have been 22 hetero characters and only 5 LGBT characters. If that's the case then LGBT characters are actually over represented by far in the Whoniverse compared to real life. That minor point aside you're spot on.

The Outer Space K9
The Outer Space K9

I must admit when I first saw the scene I was surpised but in a very good way. Good on them to show the kiss, maybe the young generation who watch the show now will grow up to be more open-minded.

It's just the sort of thing a culturally important show like Doctor Who should feature. Those who are against it should keep living in the Dark Age.

XanderH
XanderH

I didn't realise there were so many of us! mwoohahaha

ErickPerez1
ErickPerez1

come on, really? how about when capt Jack kissed the ninth doctor? just because is a girl-girl they become crazy

ChristopherSchiebel
ChristopherSchiebel

Don't forget, there were plenty of kissing between Ianto and Capt Jack in torchwood. Oh, and Jack kissing other guys too, like his early love interest and that other Time Agent played by James Marsters. 

The Living Angel
The Living Angel

Great article. What I find particularly weird but at the same time quite clever, is the fact that some people are bothered by their sexuality, but yet those same people dont seem to voice an opinion on the fact that they are  different species.

TheOncomingFish
TheOncomingFish

I don't understand why Vastra kissing Jenny would receive complaints. They're a married couple and she was saving her wife's life. It's important that stuff like this is shown on television, especially on family shows, to show kids that love is love and homosexuality is normal. 

LaraHarris
LaraHarris

Cracking article. People need to get over themselves and tgeir bigotries. Seeing gay people kiss won't make you or your kids gay. Being gay does that and the sooner we normalise what IS normal the sooner we will have kids accepting both who they and others are.

TheDaintyDraper
TheDaintyDraper

Well, the way I see it is that I have no issue with two male or two females expressing affection for each other. We live in a time, where this "gay rights" campaign is just a license to indulge in intercourse with a member of the same sex. That is it. That's all it is. That's all it encompasses, and that is the boggling aspect; campaigning for same-sex, well, sex. Showing affection for a fellow member of the same gender is something to be encouraged, something we don't have enough of in today's Western society- at least not where I live anyway; what with tight-lipped people going about their daily business with not a time to spare a thank you, or a friendly smile etc. Frankly, it's disturbing. My issue with this particular instance is that yes, it's trying to achieve acceptance in a wider demographic- but to me, it's SM saying "Look at me! I'm so politically correct! Let me shove gay rights down your throats!". I don't express contempt for people with a homosexual orientation, nor do I wish them any harm. I just can't comprehend this whole gay rights issue. Enlighten me, if you will.



TARDlSkey
TARDlSkey

When I was a little kid, I always thought kissing in general was icky and gross and a thing grown ups did. I'm sure most young children thought like that too. So if a young child saw that kiss, do you know what they'd do? What they'd actually, properly do? Ignore it and carry on. Kids... do... not... care.


Simple as! :)

ShoesUponTheTable
ShoesUponTheTable

I watched with my little brother who is 7 and he didn't even bat an eyelid. The only thing he did was turn to me after and say in a very normal way "oh I didn't know they loved each other" that was it. He didn't find it weird or wrong at all. I think he may be more understanding of it then others seeing as he's also watched buffy and seen willows development with tara but if that's the case then I'm still glad it's in doctor who so more children can become more understanding of it and ultimately not even think twice about it

Vyperpunk
Vyperpunk

You are throwing a sociological short study to the crowd as an article. As brilliant and true as it is, there would be people in academical sector that would try to prove you wrong, imagine the impact it can have over people not used to analyze this kind of information and semantic.  (Even through you explain it very well and basic!). For example, already there is a: "it's not homophobic just because we have a different opinion". It's not about having "a different opinion" from the provider of an article, it's about having a clear definition of "homophobic" (which the writer quoted above) and falling into it willingfully or not, in "weak" or "strong" way.






 Notsosmartguy
Notsosmartguy

I'm a freaking Christian and don't see why people are hating on it. Everyone deserves to be represented in media whether or not you agree, if you're not willing to grow a pair and respect other viewpoints then too bad.


kristo004
kristo004

I thought the kiss was beautiful. I didn't even think about how it was lesiban, or even the fact that Vastra is a reptile. It was nice that they finally decided to express their love to each other.

TheBigBadWolf
TheBigBadWolf

The kiss only made me cringe because it was a lizard, just looked creepy and weird. 

XanderH
XanderH

@mrclever It's original British drama, actually ;-)  Could you give us some examples of sci fi or drama tv programmes without kissing? Go on, just one. I bet you can do it if you realllllly think about it hard.

shots1
shots1

@ElyotWren Hurrah someone who saw they were exchanging oxygen like myself !!!

Cripes it was not a kiss ! And I am mature and like my Mother was, would have been rather embarrassed by such blatant kissing (were it such). Lots of things can be left to the imagination should we wish to take it further for ourselves.

jsx
jsx

@ElyotWren  Thank you for actually being decent, to see someone give this an unbiased view is a really great thing to see, so many other people on here are just ranting about homophobes, I think this has explained to me why I didn`t like the kiss, it was because it was so close up, It felt like the bbc back stabbing me for my own opinions.

Weeeeeeeeeee
Weeeeeeeeeee

@flyingcatman7131 It's a fine line though, don't you think? Removing romance entirely would take away a whole dimension of human nature from our sources of media. Integration of different nuances of different relationships into story lines, when it is done well, should enhance the overall show and character development.Take Firefly for example, attraction, desire, and love were major themes that were developed throughout the season in natural, overt and discrete manners. Wash and Zoe, Malcolm and Inara, Kaylee and Simon. The way they interacted with one another highlighted their own character behaviours, opinions, and ongoing growth of personal self.


44905
44905

@Goldidee I find this comment very homophobic and I agree with XanderH that you really do need to rethink your attitude towards LGBT+ people. I am not homosexual, yet I am not homophobic, and being 13 myself my dad isn't gay but he communicates the importance of accepting all people whether different religion, race or sexual preference. 

Scootersfood
Scootersfood

@Goldidee It's not an adult theme, it's just kissing. Kissing is in kids programs like Disney and Nickelodeon. 

A Friend of the Ood
A Friend of the Ood

@Goldidee Your nine year old is old enough to know about this. It's not an adult theme in any way. You're trying to keep them ignorant from something that is both common and natural. That doesn't solve any problems; it only creates more.

XanderH
XanderH

@Goldidee You think it's a bad thing that your kid wants to be educated? It's not Disney, hence why it was on until nearly after the watershed. Why the HELL is being gay or lesbian an "adult theme"? Do you think people have no sexuality until the day they turn 18?  

I hope to god that neither of your kids are homosexual, you seem like you would be a terrible parent at handling it and it wouldn't be surprising if they felt they couldn't be open with you about it. I knew when I was 8, think about that for a while, and prepare a better response to your kid next time they ask about something of a similar nature. Your current attitude is truly shocking. 

XanderH
XanderH

@shots1 What utter tripe. The show is rated 12 most of the time, PG in others. If parents have an issue with their kids seeing two people kiss then they quite frankly shouldn't have had children in the first place.

A Friend of the Ood
A Friend of the Ood

@TheDaintyDraper "We live in a time, where this "gay rights" campaign is just a license to indulge in intercourse with a member of the same sex."

No. That's private stuff. No one is "asking for permission".

"My issue with this particular instance is that yes, it's trying to achieve acceptance in a wider demographic- but to me, it's SM saying "Look at me! I'm so politically correct! Let me shove gay rights down your throats!". I don't express contempt for people with a homosexual orientation, nor do I wish them any harm. I just can't comprehend this whole gay rights issue."

What we want is to be treated the same as straight people. That's it. Let us get married, adopt, and treat us equally and we'll be happy. No one is shoving anything down your throat.


TheOncomingHurricane
TheOncomingHurricane

@TheDaintyDraper We live in a time, where this "gay rights" campaign is just a license to indulge in intercourse with a member of the same sex. 


You what? It's for the right to be treated like a straight person without being discriminated against. Including expressing of love through marriage, kissing, etc. Did you even read the article? 





penguintim
penguintim

@kidpuja1 I feel that Doctor Who goes over the top with it's heterosexual relationships and characters.

XanderH
XanderH

@Vyperpunk I wouldn't call it a sociological study, and I wouldn't call people who dispute the article as "academics". 

TARDlSkey
TARDlSkey

@TheBigBadWolf  Planet of The Apes takes the medal for creepy and weird inter-species kissing.

AlessandroArsuffi
AlessandroArsuffi

Then think about the cat-human intercourse implied in Gridlock

Weeeeeeeeeee
Weeeeeeeeeee

I dunno, I think there was more to it. It begs the question, as the episode writers seemed to play on: Would Vastra have done it for anyone else but Jenny? As it wasn't shown on screen, and it was obvious that Strax and Clara were struggling later on a bit more than Jenny or Vastra were, the exchange of oxygen between the two, and in the act of doing so, demonstrates the level of intimacy the two shared, and maybe more importantly, afforded them the chance to express their love for one another in a life-threatening situation where it would be the last opportunity to do so.  

shots1
shots1

@XanderH Well I am of a mature age and my mother was of the old type who do not wish to see kisses etc. It was not a kiss here, a transference of air. But everyone should be given a choice as to what they wish to see. I do not think it correct to have a family show showing too much outward sexuality. there is a time for children to learn but not on prime time TV. 

I think it might be nice if you looked at the older generation and how some were brought up,that makes some areas in life somewhat difficult.

Having read your other comments however I wonder whether you would try to see it from another perspective ?

From an Old bod : )

AlessandroArsuffi
AlessandroArsuffi

@TheOncomingHurricane @AlessandroArsuffi I didn't scroll the whole discussion, it would've taken too much time. Nevertheless, I was defending the non-bestiality issue, anyway. Otherwise, we should say that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons were also to be accused of bestiality for interbreeding (which is a FACT from a genetic PoV).