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The Actual Plot Holes in Doctor Who

Gustaff Behr investigates just how many there actually are.

doctor-who-plothole

If you don’t understand why the picture to the right is a plot hole, then chances are 1) you haven’t seen the aforementioned episode yet, 2) you’re not very observant, but chances are that you fall into category 3) you don’t understand what a plot hole actually is.

unit-headquartersTo help explain the picture: UNIT is meant to be top secret according to various UNIT officials…so why do they have a large sign outside informing the general public where they are and who’s in charge? Thank the lord these people are defending us. I feel safer already.

Nowadays, people complain that Steven Moffat’s stories are riddled with plot holes. This phrase gets memorized, put on t-shirts and tossed around by people who don’t understand what a plot hole is. A plot hole is a gap in a story where things happen without a logical reason. It’s not something that happens that you yourself can’t explain. That’s just you not being very imaginative. There are four types of plot holes in fiction:

  1. Something happens that other events specifically prohibit.
  2. Events contradict previously established events.
  3. Characters have knowledge of things that haven’t been passed to them yet. For example: Person A addresses person B by name before actually learning it.
  4. Solutions to problems that seem obvious are ignored for whatever reason. Also, don’t expect a writer to think of every possible explanation. Sometimes we the viewers are a bit more creative than they are.

Also be careful of Type-2. In time travel fiction, it’s the easiest one to confuse for a plot hole. Note that Skaro not being blown up in the 1996 TV Movie or in Asylum of the Daleks is not a plot hole, even though it looks like a Type-2. The movie could simply take place during a time prior to the events of Remembrance of the Daleks (from the Daleks POV). Also, in Asylum, Skaro is reconstituted, but the Daleks are seen to have rebuilt their whole empire, so why not their planet as well?

Please note that there is a major difference between a plot hole and a continuity error. Also note that a continuity error isn’t what you are now trying to substitute for your smashed concept of what a plot hole is. A continuity error is where continuity is portrayed as inconsistent regarding the characteristics of people, objects and even places as observed by the viewer. One of the oldest mistakes are clocks showing different times during different camera shots. This is a continuity error, not a plot hole. Drinks hopping from one hand to the next, loose/fixed ties or changing hairstyles are also continuity errors, not plot holes.

Believe it or not, the Classis Series of Doctor Who actually contains a lot more plot holes than the new series does. The old series has reportedly 70 or so plot holes spread across the 26 years of broadcast. The new series only has about ten or so on which even the TV critics agree. TV Critics: The people who are paid to complain about the work of others. Let’s take a look:

Togda pochemu vy zvuchit, kak vy s severa ?

Not a plot hole in our language (English), but the Russian dub of Series One gave the characters common Russian voices, but forgot to exclude the line where Rose asks the Ninth Doctor about his Northern accent in Aliens of London. This is a plot hole because the Russian voice-over artist would sound perfectly normal as he isn’t using a foreign accent, so the question makes no sense to the viewers. This mistake is also present in some other dubs and is very common in shows that are dubbed into other languages.

Final End – The Angels Take Manhattan

angels-take-manhattan-promo-pics-(3)If you somehow managed to explain this one for you, good for you, but most critics agree that this incident is a plot hole. Amy and Rory are sent back in time by the Weeping Angels. The Doctor explains that due to the risk of causing permanent damage to the fabric of space-time, he cannot go back in the TARDIS and rescue them. Not only that, but he can’t ever visit 1938 New York ever again. Yet it is stated that River will use the vortex manipulator to go back later on.

So if River can visit the Ponds, then why not take them back when she returns? Or better yet, park the TARDIS in Brooklyn or Jersey. Someplace close by and take the subway. This plot hole can actually be forgiven as it can be attributed to every companion farewell. Why doesn’t the Doctor just go back and save them? It’s not just the Ponds, it’s every bad companion ending out there. Type-4 Plot Hole

Telepathic Circuits – The Christmas Invasion

harriet-jones-doctor-who-Penelope-WiltonIt’s been established onscreen that the TARDIS only translates languages for people who have been inside the TARDIS. The Sycorax Leader started speaking English as soon as the Doctor woke up in the TARDIS, but his speech should only have been translated for Rose and Mickey as they were the only ones who’d been in the TARDIS. Harriet Jones and her translator have not, so they should’ve only heard gibberish. Type-1 Plot Hole

We’re identical – Journey’s End

meta-crisis-doctor-bad-wolf-bayIf you’re that concerned with companion farewells not leaving plot holes behind, RTD is just as guilty folks. He has the Meta-Crisis Doctor explain that he has all the memories/experiences of his full-Doctor counterpart, and has the half-Doctor go with Rose so that he can learn to be a better person, but there’s a problem with that already: If the half-Doctor does possess all those memories/experiences, then he should already remember the time the full-Doctor spent with Rose, so he knows not to commit genocide or even need Rose to help him be a better man because he already is (or should be). Type-2 Plot Hole and Reverse Type 3 Plot Hole

Whistle Whistle! – The Empty Child

nancy-empty-childNot a very long explanation here. Just informing you that it should be impossible for Nancy to whistle with her fingers in her mouth whilst wearing gloves. This is repeated (sort of) by Clara when she snaps her fingers (with gloves on) and opens the TARDIS door in The Day of the Doctor. Type-1 Plot Hole

Running when you can barely walk – New Earth

doctor-who-new-earth-zombie-patientsThose zombie patients in New Earth, did you notice how they can’t run, just blunder like Resident Evil knock-offs? They even lack basic hand eye coordination as they struggle to put one hand over the other. Well, did you notice how fast they can climb after Rose and the Doctor? Given their normally slow pace, it would be impossible to catch up to the TARDIS duo without the help of the scriptwriter. Type-1 Plot Hole

900 Controversy – Aliens of London

eccleston-doctor-who-9thA part of continuity that have slipped the minds of various complainers of Moffat’s plot holes, this declaration of age by the Doctor is one of the biggest plot holes in Doctor Who. The Sixth Doctor boastfully claimed to be 900 and the Seventh Doctor said he was 953, so are we led to believe that the Eighth Doctor and the War incarnation lived for negative 53 years in total? This slip up was fixed in the The Day of the Doctor when the Doctor finally explained that he wasn’t sure of his age. Before that though…Type-2 Plot Hole

The Speed of Plot – Blink

BlinkContrary to what sceptics believe, Blink does actually contain a plot, albeit just one. During the episode, Weeping Angels are seen (or not, but you know what I mean) moving across a busy street with hundreds of people around who might/could see them. However, when confronting Larry and Sally later on, the Angels have a tremendously hard time covering a couple of feet in the span of two whole minutes. Plus, I’ll add to that the fact that there were only two witnesses during this incident. Type-2 Plot Hole

Is it 1986 or 1987? – Father’s Day

doctor-who-energize-bad-wolfIt is established in Aliens of London on a missing person poster that Rose Tyler is 19 years old in March 2005. The poster also claims that Rose has been missing since March 6, 2005. If math hasn’t changed since I was at school, then that means that Rose must have been born before March 1986. The date in Father’s Day is given as November 7, 1987. Here Rose is still a baby in her mother’s arms, but in a universe where mathematics reigns supreme, she should be approximately age two. Type-2 Plot Hole

DETONATE – THE – REALITY…ah forget it – Journey’s End

davros-stolen-earth-palmAnother one from Journey’s End that might’ve been too timey-wimey for some to have noticed, but Davros claims that the reality bomb will destroy all parallel universes. The bomb doesn’t go off in the primary universe (the one we watched in the episode), but the Doctor explained to Donna at the end of Turn Left that every decision made creates a new parallel universe. So isn’t it logical to assume that there exists at least one universe where the Tenth Doctor was killed before he could regenerate (hey, I’m talking about the Turn Left universe), which means there was nobody to stop the Daleks from invading and nobody to stop Davros from detonating the reality bomb in a parallel universe which would also destroy all universes (including the one we watched) as the bomb would only have to go off in one universe for Davros’ plan to succeed. So either out of the trillions and trillions of exponentially expanding parallel universes constantly being created around us every second of the day, there isn’t at least one in which Davros wins? Statistically speaking, this is closer to impossible than it is too improbable. Reverse Type-1 Plot Hole and Type-2 Plot Hole

Conclusion

I will be the first to admit that time travel fiction can seem riddled with plot holes, but in this fandom’s case, most of the time it’s just another way to say ‘I don’t like what I’m seeing’. Looking back at the article, I count 6 of the plot holes coming from Russell T Davies’ scripts and only 3 from Steven Moffat. How come nobody noticed that RTD’s scripts contain more of them than his successor? Could it be a case of using plot holes as an excuse to berate someone? If you care so much about plot holes, Moffat is the wrong person to blame.

Actually, there isn’t a ‘right’ person to blame as both have made mistakes. Expecting anyone to write perfect scripts all the time and to have memorized every detail of an impossibly large canon spread across various media is not only selfish, but also very naive. They’re human – who do their best to try and entertain us. They make mistakes. It happens! It’s not a numbers game people. If it was, then the Classic Series writers deserve your scorn more because as I mentioned, there are over 70 plot holes there. One writer isn’t better because his score is less. That is not how entertainment value is determined and that isn’t how Doctor Who works. And if anyone tells you otherwise – they’re LYING!

Step back in time...

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574 comments
Caitlin_1403
Caitlin_1403

I thought of a plot hole myself - The older Amy in The Eleventh Hour was living in 2008 (12 years on from 1996) and she actually left travelling (The Beast Below and onwards) in 2010. However, in The Power of Three, I believe, Rory said that they have had the Doctor in their lives for 10 years making it 2020 (or 2018 at the earliest if counted from The Eleventh Hour ‘Atraxi and Prisoner Zero’ plot). So now when they meet Kate Stewart in The Power of Three, it was clear that it was their first time meeting (most notably as she scanned him for the two hearts just to make sure), however in The Day of the Doctor, which was obviously set in 2013 due to it being the anniversary year, Kate knew the Doctor full well even though as if she had met him before yet she shouldn't have met the Doctor for another 5-7 years. In the Day of The Doctor it seemed really to have been implied that The Power of Three was set before The Day of The Doctor due to Kate knowing the Doctor as a friend now, but that would mean that the timelines are way more scrambled than they should be. Of course unless you say The Day of The Doctor is set after The Power of Three, but that would make it set post 2018/2020 which would defy the whole point of the 50th anyway if it wan't set in the anniversary year. I hope this makes sense anyway xD










midnightking
midnightking

I can think of at least 3 moffat holes.


The fact that foreknowledge was said to prevent one from rewriting time in The Angels Take Manhattan went against A Christmas and Journey To The Centre Of The Tardis. (2 plot holes)


The Doctor(11) having regeneration energy. 


The Doctor not being able to use the Tardis to see Madame De Pompadour because it is "a part of events" even if he was able to do it in the runaway bride,hide and the bells of saint-john

[[Account Deleted]]
[[Account Deleted]]

For Journey's End, a parallel universe might have prevented the reality bomb from destroying everything. Cuz there are infinite parallel universes, and anything is possible...

kurt5754y8
kurt5754y8

I'm sorry to say you're wrong about "Blink".
The thing you need to understand about this episode first is that the creators chose to make the angels unable to move when a camera was on them, in order to make the audience feel as though they are a part of the action too. That being said, the angels  couldn't move because of the fact the cameras were on them.

eduardodemoura0
eduardodemoura0

Final End - The Angels Take Manhattan


The Doctor could just be saying that to Amy so that she wouldn't close her eyes, also, after she was touched by the angel and the doctor saw her gravestone, she became a fixed point in time that he could not tamper with, remembre, killing a butterfly in the past can completely change the future...


Telepathic Circuits - The Christmas Invasion

It is true that it was stated that only people who've been inside the TARDIS can understand the translations, but we also know that the TARDIS is alive, so we can assume that the TARDIS chose to let her listen to the sycorax instead of her magically listening to it... also, the TARDIS gets confused with the order of things...so...


We're Identical - Journey's End

When the Doctor regenerates he not only changes his appearence but also his whole personality... that other 10 could be a new personality, since he WAS a regeneration... just the same as eccleston... the doctor regenerated into him right after commiting mass genocide, so, therefore, he was born in battle, just like the new 10...


Whistle Whistle - The Empty Child

It's freaking doctor who mate! Whistly gloves in the Kasterborous shop, only 9,99!


Running when you can barely walk - New Earth

C'mon mate, they can walk and run as fast as they can, it's a fictional character, their abilities could be evolving, or they could walk faster ins ituations they felt like they needed...


900 Controversy - Aliens of London

That one was already fixed... and also, if i were the doctor i wouldn't know my age either! he travels in time for a living! You can't expect him to always remember how old he is, right? every time he said his age i tought to myself: oh, that must be an estimate, becase, as a time traveller, he can't possibly know how old he is...


The Speed of Plot - Blink

MIGHT see them, MIGHT, they don't actually show anyone staring at them... in the scene with the both of them they keep looking at the statue... and also, the statue could just not want to move when there were just the two of them, right?


Is it 1986 or 1987? - Father's Day

In the first place: the person who said Rose was that age was JACKIE, freaking JACKIE, she could just have typed the date wrong, or even LIED about how old Rose was so that people don't think she was a mother when she was old, or even lied for several reasons...


DETONATE - THE - REALITY...ah forget it - Journey's End

In the first place: also, in the parallel universes, the mad dalek didn't pop back into the time war tosave davros, or the doctor executed davros, or the dalek's plan didn't follow through, IN those few selected universes where the fourth doctor didn't stop the development of the daleks, in those few universes where davros was still alive, in those few universes where a mad dalek came back to the FREAKING TIME WAR, in those, wejust have to remember one thing: who conceived the plan was actually plotting against the daleks, who can even confirm that if they detonated the reality bomb she would even work huh? who can prove that she wasn't just a complicated toy created by a crazy old dalek?




OncomingStorm in a Browncoat with a stake
OncomingStorm in a Browncoat with a stake

Good article, honestly, but... What about the whole of Asylum Of The Daleks? The Daleks say they didn't kill the mental Daleks because it would be insulting (they have a concept of beauty etc etc)... and then they want the Doctor to blow the planet up! And the only way to take the shields down - the shields for the planet which is acting as a prison - is on that very planet! That's like putting the key to a cell inside the cell. What about the whole Silence plan? Kidnap River as a baby, train her up to be an assassin, use post-hypnotic suggestion to acquire a space suit which they then put her into and have her walk out of a lake to shoot the Doctor. They can zap people can't they? Why not kill him themselves?    

TheCapaldiMasterplan
TheCapaldiMasterplan

A big one here that's been missed that I just noticed: Rose, out of nowhere, remembers being Bad Wolf in Doomsday (when she talks about destroying the Emperor) despite the fact that it was erased from her memory when the Doctor absorbed the energy from her and she fell unconscious.


Polyphase
Polyphase

It's great that everyone can express an opinion, Thankyou.
Can't wait till Moffat hands over the reins to someone new :)

NewWho2012
NewWho2012

This is why I'm glad that plot holes never concern me and I never notice them and don't keep me awake at night wondering how they will be resolved. I'm more concerned about Moffat wastefully changing the title sequence/theme music and tardis console every five minutes!

mczolly
mczolly

I like how Doctor Who can "correct" these "plot holes" and "paradoxes" anytime it wants... :P Like what happened with the Doctor in Dragonfire. It was aired 26 years ago? It's never too late to explain. And you know what? It's great fun. More fun than nitpicking.

DW_girl
DW_girl

Was the timeline in 'The Name of the Doctor' everything up to the Doctor 11th incarnation?

Andrew_Swallow
Andrew_Swallow

The Time Lords knew that if the Doctor wanted them to come though he would have told them to come though, he had been there several hundred years.  No authorisation meant that it was too dangerous.  The Daleks for instance were waiting in ambush.

BenJediRabbit
BenJediRabbit

In The Time of the Doctor, the timelords are asking the question so they can get confirmation and come through, right? So after Clara tells them to help him, why don' t they just come through instead of sending time energy?

sgerto
sgerto

You missed a better one in Angels Take Manhattan: In the hallway after seeing old Rory the Angels are facing and looking right at each other, they should have been frozen but kept coming forward.

waterfallbooks
waterfallbooks

My rebuttal to this article can be found on my website, TV Breakroom.

Seaborn W Deadman
Seaborn W Deadman

Great article, but I think I disagree about the Ponds. This can be easily explained. Amy and Rory are the cause of the paradoxes in New York; they'd been zapped back and forth through time over and over again, they died but then they didn't die but then they did...it all get's very muddled and confused. I think that River could slip back to visit them with her vortex manipulator because as was established earlier in the episode, it's less bulky than a TARDIS and can zip through "traffic" more easily. However, if she were to use it to transport them back, it would just further damage time because it would negate the fact that the Doctor saw their graves, thus causing another paradox and...yeah. I think it would just further mess with time and would rip New York apart, like the Doctor said. 

Wimsey
Wimsey

"The movie could simply take place during a time prior to the events of Remembrance of the Daleks (from the Daleks POV)."  Also, if there is time travel, then there must be multiple time lines, and thus multiple histories.  Time lines in which Skaro was wiped out prior to the Time War or in which the Dalek fleet around Gallifrey was put into the Time Lock exist, as do time lines in which they don't.  If you travel in the 4th Dimension (i.e., the progression of time), then what happens at any one X x Y x Z place in the universe is different in Time T1 and Time T2.  It is true that there are non-avian dinosaurs in the UK (a general X x Y x Z) at T1=65Ma; it is true that there are no non-avian dinosaurs in the UK at T2=Now.  IF you travel in 5 Dimensions, then what happens in Time Line 1 at any one T x X x Y x Z is not the same as what happens in Time Line 2 at any one T x X x Y x Z.  The mere act of traveling back into the past guarantees that!









NormanYap
NormanYap

What I always thought with the Ponds situation was that they already lived full and happy lives and the Doctor did not want to change that. No matter how badly he wants to see them he doesn't want to ruin their lives.

Mazz_
Mazz_

I can whistle and snap fingers with gloves on.  Using fingers to whistle is more of a brace for your lips, not a component of the whistle itself.

Snapping fingers?  Grip strength.

David Walston
David Walston

Gustaff you always have the best descriptions of plot holes. Great Read!



DavidCole86
DavidCole86

UNIT is not meant to be Top Secret; it's *remit* is Top Secret. Sarah Jane has heard of them in 'The Time Warrior,' and a random tabloid reporter is well aware of them in 'Spearhead From Space', to give two examples. It's the same with Torchwood - to the public at large they're a Special Ops group.

Sabrina P
Sabrina P

"I count 6 of the plot holes coming from Russell T Davies’ scripts and only 3 from Steven Moffat."

...Do you really think you have just elaborated a complete and unbiased list of plot holes in the new series? I don't mind you taking issue with the ones you've brought up, although I would argue several of them. 

(For example, re: Meta-crisis Doctor, Rose did make the Doctor better, but events in his life can still push him to the wrong path without further guidance, as we saw happen to him in The Waters of Mars - that's what the Doctor thought Meta-crisis might be in danger of - a lot of projection going on there, if you ask me. Also, re: reality bomb, the Turn Left universe was a special case where it was generated artificially from the main universe the show takes place in and was destroyed in the end, more an alternate timeline than a parallel universe, I would say, in a similar vein to the universe without stars in The Big Bang - the implication is that the Doctor doesn't exist in other universes.)

While I agree that people often use terms like 'plot holes' and 'deus ex machina' wrongly, I disagree completely that Moffat fares better than RTD when it comes to logic or internal consistency. This article does not scratch the surface of the reams of nonsense Moffat has subjected us to.

JamesStroud
JamesStroud

@Caitlin_1403  Bit late getting here, sorry about that!


Amy and Rory calculated that it had been about 10 years *for them*, meaning that they had been travelling for ten years of their own personal time-stream, but not for ten years in terms of Earth time. in God Complex, the Doctor could, theoretically, have dropped them off at their new home mere seconds after they were taken travelling the last time, meaning that it could still be 2010. He could even have dropped them off earlier, but that would be a little risky given paradoxes and such...

ProfWimsey
ProfWimsey

@The Exploding TARDIS is DELETED That depends on how many dimensions the Reality Bomb would effect.  For example, WWII affected 4 dimensions: there were still unrepaired buildings in London into the early 1950's, and unrepaired buildings in East Berlin in the 1980s.  The Time War affected 5 dimensions: entire histories were wiped out according to the show.  (That, by the way, is another example of why there can be no continuity with time travel!).  If the Reality Bomb affected things in six dimensions, then possibly parallel universes would also have been destroyed.  It would take 7 dimensions (whatever that would be) for anything to survive.  



Doctor What
Doctor What

@BenJediRabbit I think they can't just come through the rift by themselves (it seems unlikely, but it's possible) and they need the Doctor to open the crack from this side of the universe. I also agree with the safe environment confirmation that's been commented here.

BenJediRabbit
BenJediRabbit

Well it certainly would have been safe after they had done that, non?

Rani Nose
Rani Nose

@BenJediRabbit  The Time Lords are asking the question so they get confirmation <em>and assurance that it is safe</em> to come through.  Since they get no assurance that it is safe they stay where they are.

ilyootha, a proud member of C.L.A.R.A.
ilyootha, a proud member of C.L.A.R.A.

@Sabrina P  Because when people come up with stuff like “how did they get out of his timestream?”, “how can the calculation still be going if the screwdriver was destroyed?” or indeed “how can she still jump into the timestream if he never died?” and present it as plotholes of the Moffat's era, it’s only fair to have an article addressing some equally silly "plotholes" in the RTD’s era.






DW_girl
DW_girl

@Amy the Consulting Key Ring @DW_girlOk thanks; I'd forgotten. Which begs the question: How can she have saved him when he never died there because Clara saved him from dying there in the first place? Or, maybe.... that Clara we saw in 'The Time of the Doctor' was another version of her at the very end of Eleven's time stream and she saved him for the very last time, before jumping out of the timestream in 'The Name of the Doctor', meaning he never died at Trenzalore, and thus his whole timeline at Trenzalore was effectively 'saved' by Clara. 

Just pondering with some thoughts here...

BenJediRabbit
BenJediRabbit

I GUESS it does fall inline with the general continuity of the timelords psychology. They always shy away from a fight and only do so if 100% win win. The Doctor, in classic who often berated them on their lack of courage.

flootzavut
flootzavut

The argument would be stronger and hold more water if the author had stayed away from frankly stupid ones like the Russian translation one.

A. Russia has different accents in different parts, and if the people organising the Russian voice artists didn't ensure the accent tallied, that's not RTD's fault or an issue with his writing. As a foreigner, even I could spot different accents, and the northern parts of Russia were decidedly different in typical accent than Central and more southern parts. If the Russian cast didn't tally with that, that's a shame, but it's not something untranslatable.

B. Russians are just as capable as any other nationality of inferring that his accent was northern in the original, even if the Russian voices used do not tally with that.

I'm sure the same could be said of any of the other countries which watch a dubbed version of DW.

(When I was last in Russia, it wasn't at all uncommon for films shown in cinemas to be very poorly dubbed, sometimes with one actor doing all the roles and not really differentiating between even male and female characters or what have you. I'd lay good money that Russians would if anything be more capable of inferring where necessary. To say it would be confusing for them is a little condescending.)

That isn't a plot hole, it's a production issue. Making out that a problem with that line constitutes a plot hole makes the writer of the article look like they're clutching at straws. S/he would have done much better sticking with actual plot holes, instead of trying to shoe horn in something that has little if anything to do with the writing.

It isn't a plot hole in any language, and it doesn't make the author look clever, it makes them look ignorant.

Sabrina P
Sabrina P

@ilyootha @Sabrina PYeah, like I said, I don't mind the author of the article nitpicking about whatever they like. Sometimes raising those kind of questions can start fun discussions, although if an article is attempting to delineate what is or isn't a plot hole, that's not going to work if the examples it provides don't hold up. The sentence I quoted is what I criticise, the whole 'don't accuse Moffat of writing plot holes, because according to my article RTD did worse'. Erm, there are a lot more examples of plot holes that the author has not included in their article, and some of their examples aren't accurate, so that argument doesn't hold any water.

DW_girl
DW_girl

Yeah, but how does saving Gallifrey mean that he doesn't end up dying on Trenzalore in that particular timeline?

Wimsey
Wimsey

@DW_girl @Amy the Consulting Key Ring  In some time-lines, the Doctor *does* die at Trenzalore.  In "Name," that was still a viable future for the Doctor as we follow him.  "Time" altered that, in part because of what the Doctor did in between, where he set up time lines in which Gallifrey was in a bubble universe instead of in a time lock.  Remember, there are infinite possible futures and infinite different pasts when you travel in time.  



Doomsaber
Doomsaber

True, the reason why I came to this article is to see if anyone else is bothered by the plot holes caused by the episodes where the daleks openly invades Earth before 2012. I guess the daleks were secretly operating in New York in Darleks in Manhatten, but how can the Dalek invasion occur if the episode Dalek established that no one really knew what a dalek was? It is alright for Rose Tyler not to know since she has been traveling with the Doctor. However, it is weird that the secret base that has the dalek in custody didn't what a dalek was until the Doctor arrived despite that the daleks invaded openly prior to 2012 and that the guy holding the dalek is the owner of the internet. He should at least know what a dalek is and who is the Doctor.

JohnnyDisney
JohnnyDisney

@DW_girl Remember, it was the time lords at the of "Time" that gave him a new set of regenerations and thus helped him win the battle of trenzalor, so he didn't have to die. and only by saving gallifrey he enabled the time lords to do this.

ProfWimsey
ProfWimsey

@Doomsaber One, that could not be a plothole, as no Doctor Who story since 1964 has had a plot that depended on the Daleks invading for the first time in 2012.  If anything, then it would be a continuity error. Two, it is not even a continuity error.  In some time lines, that was the first time that the Daleks invaded Earth. It seems that after that, the Daleks discovered time-travel: and that means that they then could (themselves) create alternative histories in which they invaded Earth at earlier dates (in those time streams) OR histories in which the 2012 invasion did not happen.   Again, it's like saying that it's a continuity error that events in London in 1662 and 2012 are different: it's London, shouldn't it be the same?  Of course not: they X-Y-Z coordinates might be on the same spot, but the T-X-Y-Z coordinates are different because T1=1662 and T2=2012.  Once you start traveling in time, then you cannot except the same T-X-Y-Z coordinates to be the same: you now have an R-coorindate, and what happens at R=1-T=2012-X-Y-Z=London does not equal what happens at R=2-T=2102-X-Y-Z=London.  There are infinite time streams, after all.  




ProfWimsey
ProfWimsey

@JohnnyDisney @DW_girl Right, and if the Time Lords are in a Time Lock (which they were in those time lines when the Doctor did not have "future" selves to alter the outcome), then whatever is happening at Trenzalore kills the Doctor.  The catch is that in some histories, it's the Time Lords trying to get back that sets up Trenzalore; in other histories, it had to have been something different.  The key is to remember that, if there is time travel, then there are infinite possible realities.  





Doomsaber
Doomsaber

But the timeline of the Doctor's grave site on Trenzalore is fixed, not to mention that the 11th Doctor spoke to 12th Doctor's Clara at the beginng of Time of The Doctor. If it were not fixed, a lot of episodes would be plot holes like the Doctor being known as the Valeyard (unless the meta Doctor becomes the Valeyard, which I think is probably unlikely, but still possible), the Doctor being the Curator, 12th Doctor helping in Day of The Doctor, the 11th Doctor talking to season 8 Clara, and Clara being the impossible girl - she told Hartnell which Tardis to take, so her being involved in the series happened originally think the key here to remember is that these episode were made by Moffat, the king of Deus Ex Machina.

So if time wasn't fixed, then that would mean that future Trenzalore in Name of The Doctor is an parallel future? But how can that be if the Doctor solely travels in his own timeline? That future Trenzalore has to be present so that Clara can jump through time and save the Doctor various times. In the Angel in Manhatten episode, the Doctor said if he knows what happens beforehand, it is fixed. Therefore, his gravesite is fixed, as well as any of the events that happens before it like meeting the 12th and the Curator in Day Of The Doctor. The Timelords are surely aware of the 12th. What I think really happened regarding his burial on Trenzalore - notice that I avoided saying his death on Trenzalore - is that it is just a burial site for him or the Tardis. The Timestream roadmap could be a snippet of his entire time stream or just a roadmap of his first regeneration cycle. Maybe a Timelord sheds off a used regeneration cycle much like a snake sheds off an old skin.

As for Angels in Manhatten, the episode didn't feel like a pothole to me because Amys' and Rorys' death were fixed because the Doctor was reading the chapter titles of the book, which he didn't know were spoilers until he made the last chapter title. The chapter title, "Farewell Amilia Pond" was directed to 11, not River. As for River being able to visit the Ponds, she wrote the book that started the episode. That's why she can visit the Ponds. I guess River can take the Ponds where ever they want to go, but they have to return to early 20th century New York to prevent ant contradictions